Discussion:
What's wrong with our country
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Huck Kennedy
2009-09-14 22:00:52 UTC
Permalink
No downturn for greed

A year after Lehman's collapse, Wall Street is more corrupt than ever
By Robert Reich, salon.com

Sep. 14, 2009 |

[ http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/09/14/reich/ ]

As he attempted to do with healthcare reform last week, the president
is trying to breathe new life into financial reform. He's using the
anniversary of the death of Lehman Brothers and the near-death
experience of the rest of the Street, culminating with a $600 billion
taxpayer-financed bailout, to summon the political will for change.
Yet the prospects seem dubious. As with healthcare reform, he has
stood on the sidelines for months and allowed vested interests to
frame the debate. Nor has he come up with a sufficiently bold or
coherent set of reforms likely to change the way the Street does
business, even if enacted.

Let's be clear: The Street today is up to the same tricks it was
playing before its near-death experience. Derivatives, derivatives of
derivatives, fancy-dance trading schemes, high-risk bets. “Our model
really never changed, we’ve said very consistently that our business
model remained the same,” says Goldman Sachs' chief financial officer.

The only difference now is that the Street's biggest banks know for
sure they'll be bailed out by the federal government if their bets
turn sour -- which means even bigger bets and bigger bucks.

Meanwhile, the banks' gigantic pile of non-performing loans is also
growing bigger, as more and more jobless Americans can't pay their
mortgages, credit card bills, and car loans. So forget any new lending
to Main Street. Small businesses still can't get loans. Even credit-
worthy borrowers are having a hard time getting new mortgages.

The mega-bailout of Wall Street accomplished little. The only big
winners have been top bank executives and traders, whose pay packages
are once again in the stratosphere. Banks have been so eager to lure
and keep top deal makers and traders they've even revived the practice
of offering ironclad, multimillion-dollar payments -- guaranteed no
matter how the employee performs. Goldman Sachs is on course to hand
out bonuses that could rival its record pre-meltdown paydays. In the
second quarter this year it posted its fattest quarterly profit in its
140-year history, and earmarked $11.4 billion to compensate its happy
campers. Which translates into about $770,000 per Goldman employee on
average, just about what they earned at the height of the boom. Of
course, top executives and traders will pocket much more.

Every other big bank feels it has to match Goldman's pay packages if
it wants to hold on to its "talent." Citigroup, still on life support
courtesy of $45 billion from American taxpayers, has told the White
House it needs to pay its 25 top executives an average of $10 million
each this year, and award its best trader $100 million.

A few banks like Goldman have officially repaid their TARP money but
look more closely and you'll find that every one of them is still on
the public dole. Goldman won't repay taxpayers the $13 billion it
never would have collected from AIG had we not kept AIG alive. (In one
of the most blatant conflicts of interest in all of American history,
Goldman CEO Lloyd Blankfein attended the closed-door meeting last fall
where then Treasury Secretary Hank Paulson, who was formerly Goldman's
CEO, and Tim Geithner, then at the New York Fed, made the decision to
bail out AIG.) Meanwhile, Goldman is still depending on $28 billion in
outstanding debt issued cheaply with the backing of the Federal
Deposit Insurance Corporation. Which means you and I are still
indirectly funding Goldman's high-risk operations.

So will the president succeed on financial reform? I wish I could be
optimistic. His milquetoast list of proposed reforms is inadequate to
the task, even if adopted. The Street's behavior since its bailout
should be proof enough that halfway measures won't do. The basic
function of commercial banking in our economic system -- linking
savers to borrowers -- should never have been confused with the casino-
like function of investment banking. Securitization, whereby loans are
turned into securities traded around the world, has made lenders
unaccountable for the risks they take on. The Glass-Steagall Act
should be resurrected. Pension and 401K plans, meanwhile, should never
have been allowed to subject their beneficiaries to the risks that
Wall Street gamblers routinely run. Put simply, the Street has been
given too many opportunities to play too many games with other
people's money.

But, like the healthcare industry, Wall Street has platoons of
lobbyists and an almost unlimited war chest to protect its interests
and prevent change. And with the Dow Jones Industrial Average trending
upward again -- and the public's and the media's attention focused
elsewhere, especially on healthcare -- it will be difficult to summon
the same sense of urgency financial reform commanded six months ago.

Yet without substantial reform, the nation and the world will almost
certainly be plunged into the same crisis or worse at some point in
the not-too-distant future. Wall Street's major banks are already en
route to their old, dangerous ways -- now made more dangerous by their
sure knowledge that they are too big to fail.

-- By Robert Reich
Wonko the Sane
2009-09-14 22:26:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Huck Kennedy
No downturn for greed
A year after Lehman's collapse, Wall Street is more corrupt than ever
By Robert Reich, salon.com
Sep. 14, 2009 |
  [http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/09/14/reich/]
A bigger problem is that shallow garbage like that Reich piece pass
for thoughtful commentary.

Doug
Tom Enright
2009-09-15 12:28:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wonko the Sane
Post by Huck Kennedy
No downturn for greed
A year after Lehman's collapse, Wall Street is more corrupt than ever
By Robert Reich, salon.com
Sep. 14, 2009 |
  [http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/09/14/reich/]
A bigger problem is that shallow garbage like that Reich piece pass
for thoughtful commentary.
ACORN gets billions of tax dollars to commit election fraud and help
pimps keep their underage prostitutes in line, but I'm guessing that
isn't considered "greed."

-Tom Enright
Post by Wonko the Sane
Doug
The BorgMan
2009-09-15 15:51:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Enright
Post by Wonko the Sane
Post by Huck Kennedy
No downturn for greed
A year after Lehman's collapse, Wall Street is more corrupt than ever
By Robert Reich, salon.com
Sep. 14, 2009 |
  [http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/09/14/reich/]
A bigger problem is that shallow garbage like that Reich piece pass
for thoughtful commentary.
ACORN gets billions of tax dollars to commit election fraud and help
pimps keep their underage prostitutes in line, but I'm guessing that
isn't considered "greed."
ACORN gets billions...

I mean seriously - do you post this stuff with a straight face?
--
Aaron
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-15 15:54:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by The BorgMan
Post by Tom Enright
Post by Wonko the Sane
Post by Huck Kennedy
No downturn for greed
A year after Lehman's collapse, Wall Street is more corrupt than
ever
Post by Tom Enright
Post by Wonko the Sane
Post by Huck Kennedy
By Robert Reich, salon.com
Sep. 14, 2009 |
[http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/09/14/reich/]
A bigger problem is that shallow garbage like that Reich piece pass
for thoughtful commentary.
ACORN gets billions of tax dollars to commit election fraud and help
pimps keep their underage prostitutes in line, but I'm guessing that
isn't considered "greed."
ACORN gets billions...
I mean seriously - do you post this stuff with a straight face?
Notice how the wingnuts have heart palpitations about ACORN but
never have a thing to say about Blackwater?

ACORN: Performs community service, has a few corrupt employees
Blackwater: Kills people for fun and profit

Hmm.

cb
Tom Enright
2009-09-15 17:17:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The BorgMan
ACORN gets billions...
I mean seriously - do you post this stuff with a straight face?
Notice how the wingnuts have heart palpitations about ACORN but
never have a thing to say about Blackwater?
ACORN: Performs community service, has a few corrupt employees
Blackwater: Kills people for fun and profit
Hmm.
ACORN: Helps protect pimps of child prostitutes and throw elections.
Blackwater: Protects the lives, while risking their own, of those
performing community service.

This is fun. I bet we can do this all day.

-Tom Enright
Post by Chris Bellomy
cb
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-15 17:20:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Enright
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The BorgMan
ACORN gets billions...
I mean seriously - do you post this stuff with a straight face?
Notice how the wingnuts have heart palpitations about ACORN but
never have a thing to say about Blackwater?
ACORN: Performs community service, has a few corrupt employees
Blackwater: Kills people for fun and profit
Hmm.
ACORN: Helps protect pimps of child prostitutes and throw elections.
Neither, actually.
Post by Tom Enright
Blackwater: Protects the lives, while risking their own, of those
performing community service.
Wow. Enright is now on record excusing murder.

HWHID.

cb
Tom Enright
2009-09-15 17:27:03 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by Chris Bellomy
Notice how the wingnuts have heart palpitations about ACORN but
never have a thing to say about Blackwater?
ACORN: Performs community service, has a few corrupt employees
Blackwater: Kills people for fun and profit
Hmm.
ACORN:  Helps protect pimps of child prostitutes and throw elections.
Neither, actually.
Blackwater:  Protects the lives, while risking their own, of those
performing community service.
Wow. Enright is now on record excusing murder.
Wow. Bellomy is now on record as excusing child prostitution.
Post by Chris Bellomy
HWHID.
Like I wrote, we can do this all day.

-Tom Enright
Post by Chris Bellomy
cb
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-15 17:28:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Enright
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by Tom Enright
Post by Chris Bellomy
Notice how the wingnuts have heart palpitations about ACORN but
never have a thing to say about Blackwater?
ACORN: Performs community service, has a few corrupt employees
Blackwater: Kills people for fun and profit
Hmm.
ACORN: Helps protect pimps of child prostitutes and throw elections.
Neither, actually.
Post by Tom Enright
Blackwater: Protects the lives, while risking their own, of those
performing community service.
Wow. Enright is now on record excusing murder.
Wow. Bellomy is now on record as excusing child prostitution.
Except of course that there is exactly zero evidence of that
in the ACORN fake drama.
Post by Tom Enright
Post by Chris Bellomy
HWHID.
Like I wrote, we can do this all day.
Not really. It's pretty much done now.
Tom Enright
2009-09-15 17:35:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by Chris Bellomy
Wow. Enright is now on record excusing murder.
Wow.  Bellomy is now on record as excusing child prostitution.
Except of course that there is exactly zero evidence of that
in the ACORN fake drama.
I think that filmed evidence of ACORN folks is rather compelling, the
sooper-seekrit, unamed source of the Blackwater investigations? Not
so much.
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by Chris Bellomy
HWHID.
Like I wrote, we can do this all day.
Not really. It's pretty much done now.
-Tom Enright

"There is, however, something bigger going on here, encapsulated in
the determination of Rhodes' fans, against all facts to the contrary,
to hold-tight to the pipe dream of right-wing fanatics hiring
Blackwater agents to beat her as she walked her dog: They so wish it
were true. As with global warming alarmism, these sorts of messianic
martyr fantasies about neo-Nazi conspirators aligned against liberals'
salvation program for the masses are delusions designed to assure
people clearly desperate for meaning in their lives that they are
historically significant figures living in historically significant
times. History, sadly, is not made within the virtual walls of online
echo chambers."
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-15 17:48:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Enright
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by Tom Enright
Post by Chris Bellomy
Wow. Enright is now on record excusing murder.
Wow. Bellomy is now on record as excusing child prostitution.
Except of course that there is exactly zero evidence of that
in the ACORN fake drama.
I think that filmed evidence of ACORN folks is rather compelling,
Of course you think that entrapment of a single ACORN employee
is compelling.

To quote Sadly, No!: "Isn’t it ACORN’s job to purge the
inner cities of the undesirable poor people who show up
at their offices? If not, why not? Because it almost seems
like the ACORN people in Breitbart’s video are interested
in helping applicants from the margins of society, instead
of telling them to fuck off and die quickly to spare the
rest of us being bothered by their existence. I mean, what
gives?"

cb
Tom Enright
2009-09-15 18:00:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by Tom Enright
Post by Chris Bellomy
Except of course that there is exactly zero evidence of that
in the ACORN fake drama.
I think that filmed evidence of ACORN folks is rather compelling,
Of course you think that entrapment of a single ACORN employee
is compelling.
By "entrapment" you probably mean "willfully helping-out a pimp who
wishes to use 13 year-old prostitutes."
By "single ACORN employee" you probably mean "several employees at
several locations."
Post by Chris Bellomy
To quote Sadly, No!: "Isn’t it ACORN’s job to purge the
inner cities of the undesirable poor people who show up
at their offices? If not, why not? Because it almost seems
like the ACORN people in Breitbart’s video are interested
in helping applicants from the margins of society, instead
of telling them to fuck off and die quickly to spare the
rest of us being bothered by their existence. I mean, what
gives?"
So helping someone earn money in the sex slave trade is is something
on the "margins of society?" Well, killing people is bad but 13-year
olds forced to have sex with multiple strangers is "marginally"
wrong.

I'm sorry, but the knowledge that forcing little girls to have sex
with strangers is wrong knows now economic boundry.

-Tom Enright
Post by Chris Bellomy
cb
t***@yahoo.com
2009-09-14 22:31:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Huck Kennedy
No downturn for greed
A year after Lehman's collapse, Wall Street is more corrupt than ever
By Robert Reich, salon.com
Sep. 14, 2009 |
[http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2009/09/14/reich/]
As he attempted to do with healthcare reform last week, the president
is trying to breathe new life into financial reform. He's using the
anniversary of the death of Lehman Brothers and the near-death
experience of the rest of the Street, culminating with a $600 billion
taxpayer-financed bailout, to summon the political will for change.
Yet the prospects seem dubious. As with healthcare reform, he has
stood on the sidelines for months and allowed vested interests to
frame the debate. Nor has he come up with a sufficiently bold or
coherent set of reforms likely to change the way the Street does
business, even if enacted.
Let's be clear: The Street today is up to the same tricks it was
playing before its near-death experience.
Good lord, this guy wants regulation on rampant greed? Can't a guy
make a buck without the government stepping in?

I mean, if a guy signs a deal to earn $100mil like the CitiGroup
trader, then why step on his ability to feed his family? So what if
he chooses crapshoots or puts the company on the verge of
bankruptcy ... a guy has to earn a living, right? And it's not
illegal (apparently) to bet on long shots or to get inside
information, or to leverage knowledge. It's only illegal if he's
caught. Other than that, it's all good fun. Just someone trying to
earn a buck that the mean ol' government is trying to take away from
him.

And he brings up health care. The health care industry and insurance
has two choices. One, watch the financial industry and not pay top
executives ridiculous amounts to jeopardize the companies. Or two,
say, "WTF, why are we doing this too ..." and giving their management
the same ridiculous amounts of bonuses and pay knowing that the
government will gladly sign bailouts to all of those who falter.

Should I hope that the health care industry will be somewhat moral?
LOL. It's just hard-working guys trying to make a buck. Why should
they worry about the wake while they're speeding along in their high-
powered yachts?
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-14 22:35:34 UTC
Permalink
Shorter Reich:

Contrary to conservative (and therefore establishment) orthodoxy,
greed is *not* good.

cb
Dennis J
2009-09-14 23:01:35 UTC
Permalink
hey, Chris Bellomy <***@sirhc>'s been through solid matter,
for crying out loud. Who knows what's happened to his brain? Maybe
it's scrambled his molecules...
Post by Chris Bellomy
Contrary to conservative (and therefore establishment) orthodoxy,
greed is *not* good.
cb
the better solution is to let the next bank actually fail.
--

"the Democrat and Republican parties are destroying our country right now,
They're destroying our political process." -- Jesse Ventura

"Education is the progressive discovery of our own Ignorance" Will Durant

"One can't have a sense of perspective without a sense of Humor" -- Wayne Thiboux

"the Glass is not only half full, it has been delicious so far!!" -- ME

To reply, SCRAPE off the end bits.
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-14 23:02:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dennis J
for crying out loud. Who knows what's happened to his brain? Maybe
it's scrambled his molecules...
Post by Chris Bellomy
Contrary to conservative (and therefore establishment) orthodoxy,
greed is *not* good.
cb
the better solution is to let the next bank actually fail.
First we need to break up the big banks so they're not too
big to fail.

cb
Huck Kennedy
2009-09-14 23:06:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by Dennis J
for crying out loud. Who knows what's happened to his brain? Maybe
it's scrambled his molecules...
Post by Chris Bellomy
Contrary to conservative (and therefore establishment) orthodoxy,
greed is *not* good.
cb
the better solution is to let the next bank actually fail.
First we need to break up the big banks so they're not too
big to fail.
I know--let's make a law that banks can only operate in one
state, instead of being able to become huge national behemoths. Oh
wait, we already had that law for most of our history but trashed it.
Never mind.

Huck, "Who was that masked man, Reagan?"
The BorgMan
2009-09-15 15:53:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by Dennis J
for crying out loud. Who knows what's happened to his brain? Maybe
it's scrambled his molecules...
Post by Chris Bellomy
Contrary to conservative (and therefore establishment) orthodoxy,
greed is *not* good.
cb
the better solution is to let the next bank actually fail.
First we need to break up the big banks so they're not too
big to fail.
Bingo.

If you're too big to fail, you should be defined as a monpoly under
Sherman and broken up.
--
Aaron
t***@yahoo.com
2009-09-14 23:16:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dennis J
the better solution is to let the next bank actually fail.
--
No, it should be to have controls in place so that the otherwise
irresponsible executives are held responsible for irrational and
excessive decisions. Is it the bank's employees and customers who are
at fault for bad investments, or the executives pushing for risky
endeavors?

Even if one argues that the customers are at fault for taking a bad
loan that they cannot afford, the bank should not pay a bonus to the
guy who approved the loan knowing that the buyer was likely to not be
able to pay it back, much less give him a bonus for exceptional sales.

So you have people getting paid multi-millions for sales of such
things, and you want the bank to fail (which affects many innocent
employees), you want the people who were told they were accepted to go
bankrupt, and then you want those affected to pay for the damage in
the form of a bailout to protect the executive whose "expertise" was
compromised by greed?

It's like going to a doctor, following his advice and paying for the
medicine he prescribes, and while he rakes in a million or so while
you die as a result of following his advice, he says, "well, you
should have known better."
Dennis J
2009-09-14 23:41:57 UTC
Permalink
hey, "***@yahoo.com" <***@yahoo.com>'s been through
solid matter, for crying out loud. Who knows what's happened to his
brain? Maybe it's scrambled his molecules...
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by Dennis J
the better solution is to let the next bank actually fail.
--
No, it should be to have controls in place so that the otherwise
irresponsible executives are held responsible for irrational and
excessive decisions. Is it the bank's employees and customers who are
at fault for bad investments, or the executives pushing for risky
endeavors?
Even if one argues that the customers are at fault for taking a bad
loan that they cannot afford, the bank should not pay a bonus to the
guy who approved the loan knowing that the buyer was likely to not be
able to pay it back, much less give him a bonus for exceptional sales.
So you have people getting paid multi-millions for sales of such
things, and you want the bank to fail (which affects many innocent
employees), you want the people who were told they were accepted to go
bankrupt, and then you want those affected to pay for the damage in
the form of a bailout to protect the executive whose "expertise" was
compromised by greed?
yes, Banking used to be a CONSERVATIVE career.. dull and boring. but
VERY profitable. so if one trader brings down a bank, then the bank
should fail for letting that kind of risk in the door.
Post by t***@yahoo.com
It's like going to a doctor, following his advice and paying for the
medicine he prescribes, and while he rakes in a million or so while
you die as a result of following his advice, he says, "well, you
should have known better."
--

"the Democrat and Republican parties are destroying our country right now,
They're destroying our political process." -- Jesse Ventura

"Education is the progressive discovery of our own Ignorance" Will Durant

"One can't have a sense of perspective without a sense of Humor" -- Wayne Thiboux

"the Glass is not only half full, it has been delicious so far!!" -- ME

To reply, SCRAPE off the end bits.
J. Hugh Sullivan
2009-09-15 00:11:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by Dennis J
the better solution is to let the next bank actually fail.
--
No, it should be to have controls in place so that the otherwise
irresponsible executives are held responsible for irrational and
excessive decisions. Is it the bank's employees and customers who are
at fault for bad investments, or the executives pushing for risky
endeavors?
Obamoron taught them one thing: they can now be as greedy and risky as
they wish and never fear failing. The left-wingers will bail them out.

Liberals have raised stupid to a new high water mark in less time than
it takes a woman to have a baby. In fact our country and the
prospective mother have had the same thing happen to them. \\

Hugh
t***@yahoo.com
2009-09-15 23:06:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
Obamoron taught them one thing: they can now be as greedy and risky as
they wish and never fear failing. The left-wingers will bail them out.
Actually, it was Bush who started the gravy train.
shiite
2009-09-14 23:14:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Contrary to conservative (and therefore establishment) orthodoxy,
greed is *not* good.
cb
Conservative orthodoxy is establishment? Hmmm. What happened loon
boasting assertions that liberalism's superior ethos has won the day,
that conservatism is outmoded, groping for ideas, a bad memory growing
more distant by the day?

FWIW, I agree in principle with most of Reich's assertions, but would
remind him (and you) that Dear Leader (he of back room deals with
pharma fame) and the Democrat Minions (they of addiction to campaign
contributions from Wall Street fame) are in charge these days. They
are neither competent enough or predisposed to bite the hands that
feed. The audacity of hope has become the futility of stupidity. Who
else would spend their waning political capital to push a joke of a
health care plan that they can't define, let alone pay for.
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-14 23:28:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by shiite
FWIW, I agree in principle with most of Reich's assertions, but would
remind him (and you) that Dear Leader (he of back room deals with
pharma fame) and the Democrat Minions (they of addiction to campaign
contributions from Wall Street fame) are in charge these days. They
are neither competent enough or predisposed to bite the hands that
feed. The audacity of hope has become the futility of stupidity. Who
else would spend their waning political capital to push a joke of a
health care plan that they can't define, let alone pay for.
Uh, their health care plan *reduces* the amount government
would have to pay. If you think that the status quo would
have us maintain spending levels at the current amount,
guess again.

Otherwise, though, your points are well taken. The Dems
aren't going to accomplish anything we don't make them
accomplish, but at least they're not out actively trying
to make things even worse.

cb
shiite
2009-09-14 23:43:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by shiite
FWIW, I agree in principle with most of Reich's assertions, but would
remind him (and you) that Dear Leader (he of back room deals with
pharma fame) and the Democrat Minions (they of addiction to campaign
contributions from Wall Street fame) are in charge these days.  They
are neither competent enough or predisposed to bite the hands that
feed.  The audacity of hope has become the futility of stupidity. Who
else would spend their waning political capital to push a joke of a
health care plan that they can't define, let alone pay for.
Uh, their health care plan *reduces* the amount government
would have to pay. If you think that the status quo would
have us maintain spending levels at the current amount,
guess again.
Which "their" health care plan? The one that stops fraud and waste by
decree?
Post by Chris Bellomy
Otherwise, though, your points are well taken. The Dems
aren't going to accomplish anything we don't make them
accomplish, but at least they're not out actively trying
to make things even worse.
They're every bit as corrupt as their counterparts. You drank the
marketing Kool-Aid. (antidote - 4 year term)
Dennis J
2009-09-14 23:48:17 UTC
Permalink
hey, shiite <***@gmail.com>'s been through solid matter, for
crying out loud. Who knows what's happened to his brain? Maybe it's
scrambled his molecules...
Post by shiite
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by shiite
FWIW, I agree in principle with most of Reich's assertions, but would
remind him (and you) that Dear Leader (he of back room deals with
pharma fame) and the Democrat Minions (they of addiction to campaign
contributions from Wall Street fame) are in charge these days.  They
are neither competent enough or predisposed to bite the hands that
feed.  The audacity of hope has become the futility of stupidity. Who
else would spend their waning political capital to push a joke of a
health care plan that they can't define, let alone pay for.
Uh, their health care plan *reduces* the amount government
would have to pay. If you think that the status quo would
have us maintain spending levels at the current amount,
guess again.
Which "their" health care plan? The one that stops fraud and waste by
decree?
Post by Chris Bellomy
Otherwise, though, your points are well taken. The Dems
aren't going to accomplish anything we don't make them
accomplish, but at least they're not out actively trying
to make things even worse.
They're every bit as corrupt as their counterparts. You drank the
marketing Kool-Aid. (antidote - 4 year term)
better antidote: a viable third party...
--

"the Democrat and Republican parties are destroying our country right now,
They're destroying our political process." -- Jesse Ventura

"Education is the progressive discovery of our own Ignorance" Will Durant

"One can't have a sense of perspective without a sense of Humor" -- Wayne Thiboux

"the Glass is not only half full, it has been delicious so far!!" -- ME

To reply, SCRAPE off the end bits.
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-15 03:21:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by shiite
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by shiite
FWIW, I agree in principle with most of Reich's assertions, but would
remind him (and you) that Dear Leader (he of back room deals with
pharma fame) and the Democrat Minions (they of addiction to campaign
contributions from Wall Street fame) are in charge these days. They
are neither competent enough or predisposed to bite the hands that
feed. The audacity of hope has become the futility of stupidity. Who
else would spend their waning political capital to push a joke of a
health care plan that they can't define, let alone pay for.
Uh, their health care plan *reduces* the amount government
would have to pay. If you think that the status quo would
have us maintain spending levels at the current amount,
guess again.
Which "their" health care plan? The one that stops fraud and waste by
decree?
There are three bills which are pretty closely in alignment,
and a fourth, an outlier, produced by the Senate Finance
Committee. I'm referring to the three, each of which is
pretty true to the goals espoused by the White House.
Post by shiite
Post by Chris Bellomy
Otherwise, though, your points are well taken. The Dems
aren't going to accomplish anything we don't make them
accomplish, but at least they're not out actively trying
to make things even worse.
They're every bit as corrupt as their counterparts. You drank the
marketing Kool-Aid. (antidote - 4 year term)
No I didn't. I damned well know that our elections often
boil down to lost causes vs. lost causes. Sometimes they
boil down to lost causes vs. unknown quantities. And if
you'll look back, last September I posted the slogan,
"Obama: Get Disappointed by Someone New."

But the choice was between him and an aging hothead
who wanted nothing else but to continue Bush policies.
Organized political action has a chance with Dems,
however slim. It's a waste of time with the GOP in
charge.

There is hope for change, but it's going to take
concerted non-insane public political action to make
it come to pass.

cb
J. Hugh Sullivan
2009-09-15 00:15:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Uh, their health care plan *reduces* the amount government
would have to pay. If you think that the status quo would
have us maintain spending levels at the current amount,
guess again.
Otherwise, though, your points are well taken. The Dems
aren't going to accomplish anything we don't make them
accomplish, but at least they're not out actively trying
to make things even worse.
cb
If not "actively trying, they are unbelievably ignorant. We didn't
need big government to become the greatest nation and we don't need a
socialist who reads books about Post America written by a Muslim when
flying on AF1.

Hugh
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-15 03:22:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
Post by Chris Bellomy
Uh, their health care plan *reduces* the amount government
would have to pay. If you think that the status quo would
have us maintain spending levels at the current amount,
guess again.
Otherwise, though, your points are well taken. The Dems
aren't going to accomplish anything we don't make them
accomplish, but at least they're not out actively trying
to make things even worse.
cb
If not "actively trying, they are unbelievably ignorant. We didn't
need big government to become the greatest nation
On what planet do you spend most of your time?

cb
James Schrumpf
2009-09-15 03:50:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
Post by Chris Bellomy
Uh, their health care plan *reduces* the amount government
would have to pay. If you think that the status quo would
have us maintain spending levels at the current amount,
guess again.
Otherwise, though, your points are well taken. The Dems
aren't going to accomplish anything we don't make them
accomplish, but at least they're not out actively trying
to make things even worse.
cb
If not "actively trying, they are unbelievably ignorant. We didn't
need big government to become the greatest nation
On what planet do you spend most of your time?
cb
Well, we needed big government for the massive deficit spending plan that was
WWII, but we put the money to good use by (1) making a lot of stuff in our
factories that put people to work and ended the Great Depression, and (2)
using that stuff to blow up other countries' industries so they couldn't make
stuff any more and they'd have to buy our stuff when it was all over.

Once the war ended, it was just good old American capitalism that Made
America Great!
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
James Schrumpf http://www.hilltopper.net
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-15 04:08:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Schrumpf
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
Post by Chris Bellomy
Uh, their health care plan *reduces* the amount government
would have to pay. If you think that the status quo would
have us maintain spending levels at the current amount,
guess again.
Otherwise, though, your points are well taken. The Dems
aren't going to accomplish anything we don't make them
accomplish, but at least they're not out actively trying
to make things even worse.
cb
If not "actively trying, they are unbelievably ignorant. We didn't
need big government to become the greatest nation
On what planet do you spend most of your time?
cb
Well, we needed big government for the massive deficit spending plan that was
WWII, but we put the money to good use by (1) making a lot of stuff in our
factories that put people to work and ended the Great Depression, and (2)
using that stuff to blow up other countries' industries so they couldn't make
stuff any more and they'd have to buy our stuff when it was all over.
So, it was a make-work program designed to build stuff we
planned to destroy as quickly as we could.

Hmm.

cb
James Schrumpf
2009-09-15 23:39:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by James Schrumpf
Post by Chris Bellomy
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:28:19 -0500, Chris Bellomy
Post by Chris Bellomy
Uh, their health care plan *reduces* the amount government
would have to pay. If you think that the status quo would
have us maintain spending levels at the current amount,
guess again.
Otherwise, though, your points are well taken. The Dems
aren't going to accomplish anything we don't make them
accomplish, but at least they're not out actively trying
to make things even worse.
cb
If not "actively trying, they are unbelievably ignorant. We didn't
need big government to become the greatest nation
On what planet do you spend most of your time?
cb
Well, we needed big government for the massive deficit spending plan
that was WWII, but we put the money to good use by (1) making a lot of
stuff in our factories that put people to work and ended the Great
Depression, and (2) using that stuff to blow up other countries'
industries so they couldn't make stuff any more and they'd have to buy
our stuff when it was all over.
So, it was a make-work program designed to build stuff we
planned to destroy as quickly as we could.
Hmm.
cb
Yeah. And the scale was immense, beyond anything we've ever seen since. You
don't have a national mobilization for scrap metal, meatless days, Victory
gardens and transform the entire industrial workforce from civilian to
military production for a paltry series of conflicts like we've had since.

WWII was the Big One, fer sure.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
James Schrumpf http://www.hilltopper.net
Chagney Hunt
2009-09-15 06:41:10 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 14, 11:50 pm, James Schrumpf
Post by James Schrumpf
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
Post by Chris Bellomy
Uh, their health care plan *reduces* the amount government
would have to pay. If you think that the status quo would
have us maintain spending levels at the current amount,
guess again.
Otherwise, though, your points are well taken. The Dems
aren't going to accomplish anything we don't make them
accomplish, but at least they're not out actively trying
to make things even worse.
cb
If not "actively trying, they are unbelievably ignorant. We didn't
need big government to become the greatest nation
On what planet do you spend most of your time?
cb
Well, we needed big government for the massive deficit spending plan that was
WWII, but we put the money to good use by (1) making a lot of stuff in our
factories that put people to work and ended the Great Depression, and (2)
using that stuff to blow up other countries' industries so they couldn't make
stuff any more and they'd have to buy our stuff when it was all over.
That sounds interesting enough, but the second part wasn't quite true.
How did they use to pay for our stuffs given even the UK were utter
broke? We actually dumped a bunch of money into Europe and Japan to
rebuild their economies. High, progressive taxation took care of the
spendings and, erm, "Made America Great!" (your words). WW2 also
spawned the military industrial complex.
Post by James Schrumpf
Once the war ended, it was just good old American capitalism that Made
America Great!
James Schrumpf
2009-09-15 23:46:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chagney Hunt
On Sep 14, 11:50 pm, James Schrumpf
Post by James Schrumpf
Post by Chris Bellomy
On Mon, 14 Sep 2009 18:28:19 -0500, Chris Bellomy
Post by Chris Bellomy
Uh, their health care plan *reduces* the amount government
would have to pay. If you think that the status quo would
have us maintain spending levels at the current amount,
guess again.
Otherwise, though, your points are well taken. The Dems
aren't going to accomplish anything we don't make them
accomplish, but at least they're not out actively trying
to make things even worse.
cb
If not "actively trying, they are unbelievably ignorant. We didn't
need big government to become the greatest nation
On what planet do you spend most of your time?
cb
Well, we needed big government for the massive deficit spending plan
that
was
Post by James Schrumpf
WWII, but we put the money to good use by (1) making a lot of stuff in
ou
r
Post by James Schrumpf
factories that put people to work and ended the Great Depression, and
(2) using that stuff to blow up other countries' industries so they
couldn't
make
Post by James Schrumpf
stuff any more and they'd have to buy our stuff when it was all over.
That sounds interesting enough, but the second part wasn't quite true.
How did they use to pay for our stuffs given even the UK were utter
broke? We actually dumped a bunch of money into Europe and Japan to
rebuild their economies. High, progressive taxation took care of the
spendings and, erm, "Made America Great!" (your words). WW2 also
spawned the military industrial complex.
Post by James Schrumpf
Once the war ended, it was just good old American capitalism that Made
America Great!
Remember, our national debt as a percentage of GDP was up around 120% in
1945, and in 1944-45 the top federal income tax rate was 94%. That's a
lot of money to dump into Europe, considering that in 1931 the top rate
was only 25%.

"High, progressive taxation" didn't make America great -- America became
great in spite of that level of taxation. Don't put the cart before the
horse.
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
James Schrumpf http://www.hilltopper.net
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-15 23:53:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Schrumpf
Remember, our national debt as a percentage of GDP was up around 120% in
1945, and in 1944-45 the top federal income tax rate was 94%. That's a
lot of money to dump into Europe, considering that in 1931 the top rate
was only 25%.
"High, progressive taxation" didn't make America great -- America became
great in spite of that level of taxation. Don't put the cart before the
horse.
The American economy in 1928 was a dwarf compared to what
it would be in 1958.

You can insist that there's no connection between this
particular correlation and causation if you want, but
then you have to explain what's become of our economy
since the tax brackets became compressed. Good luck
with that.

cb
James Schrumpf
2009-09-16 00:08:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by James Schrumpf
Remember, our national debt as a percentage of GDP was up around 120% in
1945, and in 1944-45 the top federal income tax rate was 94%. That's a
lot of money to dump into Europe, considering that in 1931 the top rate
was only 25%.
"High, progressive taxation" didn't make America great -- America became
great in spite of that level of taxation. Don't put the cart before the
horse.
The American economy in 1928 was a dwarf compared to what
it would be in 1958.
You can insist that there's no connection between this
particular correlation and causation if you want, but
then you have to explain what's become of our economy
since the tax brackets became compressed. Good luck
with that.
cb
Europe and Asia rebuilt their economies. Didn't you notice?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
James Schrumpf http://www.hilltopper.net
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-16 00:11:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Schrumpf
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by James Schrumpf
Remember, our national debt as a percentage of GDP was up around 120% in
1945, and in 1944-45 the top federal income tax rate was 94%. That's a
lot of money to dump into Europe, considering that in 1931 the top rate
was only 25%.
"High, progressive taxation" didn't make America great -- America became
great in spite of that level of taxation. Don't put the cart before the
horse.
The American economy in 1928 was a dwarf compared to what
it would be in 1958.
You can insist that there's no connection between this
particular correlation and causation if you want, but
then you have to explain what's become of our economy
since the tax brackets became compressed. Good luck
with that.
Europe and Asia rebuilt their economies. Didn't you notice?
That doesn't explain the stratification of our economy
with an ever-widening gulf between rich and poor.

cb
James Schrumpf
2009-09-16 00:40:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by James Schrumpf
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by James Schrumpf
Remember, our national debt as a percentage of GDP was up around 120%
in 1945, and in 1944-45 the top federal income tax rate was 94%.
That's a lot of money to dump into Europe, considering that in 1931
the top rate was only 25%.
"High, progressive taxation" didn't make America great -- America
became great in spite of that level of taxation. Don't put the cart
before the horse.
The American economy in 1928 was a dwarf compared to what
it would be in 1958.
You can insist that there's no connection between this
particular correlation and causation if you want, but
then you have to explain what's become of our economy
since the tax brackets became compressed. Good luck
with that.
Europe and Asia rebuilt their economies. Didn't you notice?
That doesn't explain the stratification of our economy
with an ever-widening gulf between rich and poor.
cb
A lot of things explain that, one being the change in American industry
from a mostly "producing" economy to a mostly "service" economy. Another
is the increased automation of the "producing" economy that's left.

When you have a lot of jobs on production lines that pay a decent,
middle-class salary, you have a lot of people earning those salaries.
Think of all those steel-and-car-producing jobs in the Midwest from the
late '40s through the '60s.

You also have the "poor" and you have the "rich."

Now automate those industries so that you produce just as much, if not
more, with only 10% of the workforce you needed before. All those people
with those nice middle-class jobs don't have them any more; are they going
to move toward the "poor" end of the curve or the "rich" end?

Is raising taxes going to bring those jobs back? No. However, you can
take money away from those who are still earning good salaries and give it
to the other people. That might span that "ever-widening gulf", but it
won't do a damn thing for the economy.

"Tax the rich, feed the poor, until there are no rich no more."

Then how do you feed the poor?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
James Schrumpf http://www.hilltopper.net
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-16 02:49:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Schrumpf
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by James Schrumpf
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by James Schrumpf
Remember, our national debt as a percentage of GDP was up around 120%
in 1945, and in 1944-45 the top federal income tax rate was 94%.
That's a lot of money to dump into Europe, considering that in 1931
the top rate was only 25%.
"High, progressive taxation" didn't make America great -- America
became great in spite of that level of taxation. Don't put the cart
before the horse.
The American economy in 1928 was a dwarf compared to what
it would be in 1958.
You can insist that there's no connection between this
particular correlation and causation if you want, but
then you have to explain what's become of our economy
since the tax brackets became compressed. Good luck
with that.
Europe and Asia rebuilt their economies. Didn't you notice?
That doesn't explain the stratification of our economy
with an ever-widening gulf between rich and poor.
A lot of things explain that, one being the change in American industry
from a mostly "producing" economy to a mostly "service" economy. Another
is the increased automation of the "producing" economy that's left.
No, no, no. Let me re-explain this.

GDP since Kemp-Roth in 1981 has risen at about the same
rate that it rose in the 28 years previous (comparing
apples to apples in terms of data set). Let me repeat
that in different terms: Kemp-Roth had no long-term
effect on GDP. At this point in time, we can look at
that as a fact.*

Real wages since 1981 have, for the bottom 90% of the
workforce, fallen. For the top 10%, they have risen.

I don't think conversion to a service economy explains
this. Nor do I think that automation explains it. The
pie keeps getting bigger, but the access to it for 90%
of the population keeps shrinking. The numbers are plain.

So... before highly progressive taxation, we had a
small middle class and a wide gulf between rich and
poor. During the height of the liberal consensus, the
gap closed and the middle class grew. When the liberal
consensus ended and progressive taxation ended, the
gulf widened again and the middle class shrank.

That's a lot of correlation. If there is no causation,
it's going to take one hell of an explanation to overcome
*that*.

cb


*Actually, GDP growth fell slightly after Kemp-Roth. See:
http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/faculty/hodgson/Courses/so11/stratification/RecentTrendsArticle.html
James Schrumpf
2009-09-16 03:05:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by James Schrumpf
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by James Schrumpf
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by James Schrumpf
Remember, our national debt as a percentage of GDP was up around
120% in 1945, and in 1944-45 the top federal income tax rate was
94%. That's a lot of money to dump into Europe, considering that in
1931 the top rate was only 25%.
"High, progressive taxation" didn't make America great -- America
became great in spite of that level of taxation. Don't put the
cart before the horse.
The American economy in 1928 was a dwarf compared to what
it would be in 1958.
You can insist that there's no connection between this
particular correlation and causation if you want, but
then you have to explain what's become of our economy
since the tax brackets became compressed. Good luck
with that.
Europe and Asia rebuilt their economies. Didn't you notice?
That doesn't explain the stratification of our economy
with an ever-widening gulf between rich and poor.
A lot of things explain that, one being the change in American industry
from a mostly "producing" economy to a mostly "service" economy.
Another is the increased automation of the "producing" economy that's
left.
No, no, no. Let me re-explain this.
GDP since Kemp-Roth in 1981 has risen at about the same
rate that it rose in the 28 years previous (comparing
apples to apples in terms of data set). Let me repeat
that in different terms: Kemp-Roth had no long-term
effect on GDP. At this point in time, we can look at
that as a fact.*
Real wages since 1981 have, for the bottom 90% of the
workforce, fallen. For the top 10%, they have risen.
I don't think conversion to a service economy explains
this. Nor do I think that automation explains it. The
pie keeps getting bigger, but the access to it for 90%
of the population keeps shrinking. The numbers are plain.
So... before highly progressive taxation, we had a
small middle class and a wide gulf between rich and
poor. During the height of the liberal consensus, the
gap closed and the middle class grew. When the liberal
consensus ended and progressive taxation ended, the
gulf widened again and the middle class shrank.
That's a lot of correlation. If there is no causation,
it's going to take one hell of an explanation to overcome
*that*.
cb
http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/faculty/hodgson/Courses/so11/stratificat
ion/RecentTrendsArticle.html
As I pointed out (and you snipped), productivity _increased_ while
automation eliminated millions of good, middle-class-wage-paying jobs. OF
COURSE the GDP kept rising and OF COURSE wages went down.

What is so magical in your mind about highly progressive taxation that you
think it "creates" wealth? It's impossible for it to do so, because all it
does is take money away from people, and I find it hard to believe that it
would cause wages to go up. There's going to be a point where earning more
isn't going to pay any more, so why try?

Finally, these numbers: according to 2007 numbers, the top 5% of income
earners already pay 50% of all federal tax revenues. The top 1% paid 25%
of revenues. Forty percent -- nearly half of all wage earners -- paid no
income tax at all.

Given those numbers, how can anyone argue that the "rich aren't paying
their share"?
--
------------------------------------------------------------------------
James Schrumpf http://www.hilltopper.net
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-16 03:13:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Schrumpf
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by James Schrumpf
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by James Schrumpf
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by James Schrumpf
Remember, our national debt as a percentage of GDP was up around
120% in 1945, and in 1944-45 the top federal income tax rate was
94%. That's a lot of money to dump into Europe, considering that in
1931 the top rate was only 25%.
"High, progressive taxation" didn't make America great -- America
became great in spite of that level of taxation. Don't put the
cart before the horse.
The American economy in 1928 was a dwarf compared to what
it would be in 1958.
You can insist that there's no connection between this
particular correlation and causation if you want, but
then you have to explain what's become of our economy
since the tax brackets became compressed. Good luck
with that.
Europe and Asia rebuilt their economies. Didn't you notice?
That doesn't explain the stratification of our economy
with an ever-widening gulf between rich and poor.
A lot of things explain that, one being the change in American industry
from a mostly "producing" economy to a mostly "service" economy.
Another is the increased automation of the "producing" economy that's
left.
No, no, no. Let me re-explain this.
GDP since Kemp-Roth in 1981 has risen at about the same
rate that it rose in the 28 years previous (comparing
apples to apples in terms of data set). Let me repeat
that in different terms: Kemp-Roth had no long-term
effect on GDP. At this point in time, we can look at
that as a fact.*
Real wages since 1981 have, for the bottom 90% of the
workforce, fallen. For the top 10%, they have risen.
I don't think conversion to a service economy explains
this. Nor do I think that automation explains it. The
pie keeps getting bigger, but the access to it for 90%
of the population keeps shrinking. The numbers are plain.
So... before highly progressive taxation, we had a
small middle class and a wide gulf between rich and
poor. During the height of the liberal consensus, the
gap closed and the middle class grew. When the liberal
consensus ended and progressive taxation ended, the
gulf widened again and the middle class shrank.
That's a lot of correlation. If there is no causation,
it's going to take one hell of an explanation to overcome
*that*.
cb
http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/faculty/hodgson/Courses/so11/stratificat
ion/RecentTrendsArticle.html
As I pointed out (and you snipped), productivity _increased_ while
automation eliminated millions of good, middle-class-wage-paying jobs. OF
COURSE the GDP kept rising and OF COURSE wages went down.
Your logic fails the test. You might be able to explain
higher unemployment with this. You can't explain wage
stagnation with it, though. Non sequitur -- it does not
follow.
Post by James Schrumpf
What is so magical in your mind about highly progressive taxation that you
think it "creates" wealth?
Progressive taxation keeps money circulating that otherwise
would become frozen or destroyed by hoarding or irresponsible
speculation. It insures that the connection between money and
value remains stronger than it otherwise would be.

cb
The Ghost of Edward M. Kennedy
2009-09-16 15:06:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Progressive taxation keeps money circulating that otherwise
would become frozen
That's right, people who are richer than they otherwise would
be never spend any of that extra money!
Post by Chris Bellomy
or destroyed by hoarding
Chris invents new ecomonic theories with the wave of a hand!
Wait -- how many times does a bank lend out your deposits?!
Post by Chris Bellomy
or irresponsible speculation.
It's true, rich people never speculate responsibly. That explains how
they got rich in the first place!
Post by Chris Bellomy
It insures that the connection between money and
value remains stronger than it otherwise would be.
No, giving handouts is what severs the connection between money
and value.

--Tedward
RaginPage
2009-09-16 15:27:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by James Schrumpf
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by James Schrumpf
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by James Schrumpf
Remember, our national debt as a percentage of GDP was up around
120% in 1945, and in 1944-45 the top federal income tax rate was
94%. That's a lot of money to dump into Europe, considering that in
1931 the top rate was only 25%.
"High, progressive taxation" didn't make America great -- America
became great in spite of that level of taxation.  Don't put the
cart before the horse.
The American economy in 1928 was a dwarf compared to what
it would be in 1958.
You can insist that there's no connection between this
particular correlation and causation if you want, but
then you have to explain what's become of our economy
since the tax brackets became compressed. Good luck
with that.
Europe and Asia rebuilt their economies.  Didn't you notice?
That doesn't explain the stratification of our economy
with an ever-widening gulf between rich and poor.
A lot of things explain that, one being the change in American industry
from a mostly "producing" economy to a mostly "service" economy.
Another is the increased automation of the "producing" economy that's
left.
No, no, no. Let me re-explain this.
GDP since Kemp-Roth in 1981 has risen at about the same
rate that it rose in the 28 years previous (comparing
apples to apples in terms of data set). Let me repeat
that in different terms: Kemp-Roth had no long-term
effect on GDP. At this point in time, we can look at
that as a fact.*
Real wages since 1981 have, for the bottom 90% of the
workforce, fallen. For the top 10%, they have risen.
I don't think conversion to a service economy explains
this. Nor do I think that automation explains it. The
pie keeps getting bigger, but the access to it for 90%
of the population keeps shrinking. The numbers are plain.
So... before highly progressive taxation, we had a
small middle class and a wide gulf between rich and
poor. During the height of the liberal consensus, the
gap closed and the middle class grew. When the liberal
consensus ended and progressive taxation ended, the
gulf widened again and the middle class shrank.
That's a lot of correlation. If there is no causation,
it's going to take one hell of an explanation to overcome
*that*.
cb
http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/faculty/hodgson/Courses/so11/stratif...
ion/RecentTrendsArticle.html
As I pointed out (and you snipped), productivity _increased_ while
automation eliminated millions of good, middle-class-wage-paying jobs.  OF
COURSE the GDP kept rising and OF COURSE wages went down.
Your logic fails the test. You might be able to explain
higher unemployment with this. You can't explain wage
stagnation with it, though. Non sequitur -- it does not
follow.
Post by James Schrumpf
What is so magical in your mind about highly progressive taxation that you
think it "creates" wealth?
Progressive taxation keeps money circulating that otherwise
would become frozen or destroyed by hoarding or irresponsible
speculation. It insures that the connection between money and
value remains stronger than it otherwise would be.
Hoarding, irresponsible speculation? Do you honestly believe people
got rich by either hiding money in mattresses or simply speculating?

Your philosophy doesn't seem to have a lot of common sense. MOST
wealthy people have much of their money in stocks, bonds etc, things
that fund and drive the economy. The idea that they are doing nothing
with it is false. The idea that we can tap the same source we've been
tapping to a greater degree in a failing economy is short-sighted, and
it will not work.

Brent
Kyle T. Jones
2009-09-16 15:11:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Schrumpf
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by James Schrumpf
Remember, our national debt as a percentage of GDP was up around 120% in
1945, and in 1944-45 the top federal income tax rate was 94%. That's a
lot of money to dump into Europe, considering that in 1931 the top rate
was only 25%.
"High, progressive taxation" didn't make America great -- America became
great in spite of that level of taxation. Don't put the cart before the
horse.
The American economy in 1928 was a dwarf compared to what
it would be in 1958.
You can insist that there's no connection between this
particular correlation and causation if you want, but
then you have to explain what's become of our economy
since the tax brackets became compressed. Good luck
with that.
cb
Europe and Asia rebuilt their economies. Didn't you notice?
And here I thought you weren't a zero-sum game guy...
The BorgMan
2009-09-16 15:44:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by James Schrumpf
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by James Schrumpf
Remember, our national debt as a percentage of GDP was up around
120% in 1945, and in 1944-45 the top federal income tax rate was
94%. That's a lot of money to dump into Europe, considering that in
1931 the top rate was only 25%.
"High, progressive taxation" didn't make America great -- America
became great in spite of that level of taxation. Don't put the cart
before the horse.
The American economy in 1928 was a dwarf compared to what
it would be in 1958.
You can insist that there's no connection between this
particular correlation and causation if you want, but
then you have to explain what's become of our economy
since the tax brackets became compressed. Good luck
with that.
cb
Europe and Asia rebuilt their economies. Didn't you notice?
No.

The USA rebuilt Europe and Asia's economies.
--
Aaron
J. Hugh Sullivan
2009-09-15 13:18:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
Post by Chris Bellomy
Uh, their health care plan *reduces* the amount government
would have to pay. If you think that the status quo would
have us maintain spending levels at the current amount,
guess again.
Otherwise, though, your points are well taken. The Dems
aren't going to accomplish anything we don't make them
accomplish, but at least they're not out actively trying
to make things even worse.
cb
If not "actively trying, they are unbelievably ignorant. We didn't
need big government to become the greatest nation
On what planet do you spend most of your time?
cb
Earth - with you and other socialists coming out of the closet Earth
needs my help most. First time I have had to face millions but looks
like my recruiting is going well.

Hugh
lein
2009-09-14 23:24:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Contrary to conservative (and therefore establishment) orthodoxy,
greed is *not* good.
When is greed ever absent?
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-14 23:28:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by lein
Post by Chris Bellomy
Contrary to conservative (and therefore establishment) orthodoxy,
greed is *not* good.
When is greed ever absent?
When is murder ever absent?

cb
J. Hugh Sullivan
2009-09-15 00:17:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by lein
Post by Chris Bellomy
Contrary to conservative (and therefore establishment) orthodoxy,
greed is *not* good.
When is greed ever absent?
When is murder ever absent?
cb
I guess you are saying government controls often fail. Tell your boy
Obamoron.

Hugh
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-15 03:15:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by lein
Post by Chris Bellomy
Contrary to conservative (and therefore establishment) orthodoxy,
greed is *not* good.
When is greed ever absent?
When is murder ever absent?
I guess you are saying government controls often fail.
Come on, you can guess better than that.
Dennis J
2009-09-14 23:47:24 UTC
Permalink
hey, lein <***@my-deja.com>'s been through solid matter,
for crying out loud. Who knows what's happened to his brain? Maybe
it's scrambled his molecules...
Post by lein
Post by Chris Bellomy
Contrary to conservative (and therefore establishment) orthodoxy,
greed is *not* good.
When is greed ever absent?
never is, but some restraint would be nice...
--

"the Democrat and Republican parties are destroying our country right now,
They're destroying our political process." -- Jesse Ventura

"Education is the progressive discovery of our own Ignorance" Will Durant

"One can't have a sense of perspective without a sense of Humor" -- Wayne Thiboux

"the Glass is not only half full, it has been delicious so far!!" -- ME

To reply, SCRAPE off the end bits.
Tom Enright
2009-09-15 12:20:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Contrary to conservative (and therefore establishment) orthodoxy,
greed is *not* good.
I'll live in a country that encourages people to innovate and make
money, you can live in a country where everyone is "equal" (as
determined by a central authority). When you get tired of your kids
dieing of rickets, wiping yourself with your bare hand and eating tree
bark I'll hire you to mow the lawn.

-Tom Enright

"Wherever there is a jackboot stomping on a human face there will be a
well-heeled Western liberal to explain that the face does, after all,
enjoy free health care and 100 percent literacy."
- John Derbyshire
Post by Chris Bellomy
cb
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-15 15:29:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Enright
Post by Chris Bellomy
Contrary to conservative (and therefore establishment) orthodoxy,
greed is *not* good.
I'll live in a country that encourages people to innovate and make
money, you can live in a country where everyone is "equal" (as
determined by a central authority).
False dichotomy.

Wanna try again?

cb
Wonko the Sane
2009-09-15 17:13:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Contrary to conservative (and therefore establishment) orthodoxy,
greed is *not* good.
cb
True, but assuming greed will happen is a far more sound basis for
public policy than assuming altruism.

Doug
The Ghost of Edward M. Kennedy
2009-09-15 17:23:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Contrary to conservative (and therefore establishment) orthodoxy,
greed is *not* good.
<
<True, but assuming greed will happen is a far more sound basis for
<public policy than assuming altruism.

False dichotomy, but unlike Chris I'll bother explaining an
example -- Duke University.

What I'd like is an objective definition of greed vs."healthily
wealthy", and how you objectively distinguish between the two.
Somewhere there ought to be a line, and on this side is greed,
and on that side not-greed.

Good luck with that.

--Tedward
Wonko the Sane
2009-09-15 22:45:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Ghost of Edward M. Kennedy
Post by Chris Bellomy
Contrary to conservative (and therefore establishment) orthodoxy,
greed is *not* good.
<
<True, but assuming greed will happen is a far more sound basis for
<public policy than assuming altruism.
False dichotomy
I disagree. When you want people to be motivated to do something you
either reward them (appeal to self interest, i.e greed), punish them
or appeal to altruism. Those are the only levers the government has.
Assuming we want to limit punishment to criminal situations, you have
greed or altruism. IMO, the mortgage crisis happened because the
system evolved into something that rewarded making bad loans. You
wanna fix it, make the loan originators cough up their fees when a
loan goes bad, or even make them cover some or all of the losses.

Don't get me wrong. Altruism is great. I'd like to think I've done
my share of altruistic things. And lots of people to great things
just because they want to do the right thing. But as a public policy
lever, it is far, far less reliable than self interest.

Doug


, but unlike Chris I'll bother explaining an
Post by The Ghost of Edward M. Kennedy
example -- Duke University.
What I'd like is an objective definition of greed vs."healthily
wealthy", and how you objectively distinguish between the two.
Somewhere there ought to be a line, and on this side is greed,
and on that side not-greed.
Good luck with that.
--Tedward
The Ghost of Edward M. Kennedy
2009-09-16 14:53:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Ghost of Edward M. Kennedy
Post by Chris Bellomy
Contrary to conservative (and therefore establishment) orthodoxy,
greed is *not* good.
<
<True, but assuming greed will happen is a far more sound basis for
<public policy than assuming altruism.
False dichotomy
<
<I disagree. When you want people to be motivated to do something you
<either reward them (appeal to self interest, i.e greed), punish them
<or appeal to altruism. Those are the only levers the government has.

I disagree -- altruism and greed are flip sides of the same coin.
People do altruistic things because it gives them warm fuzzies.
"Greedy" people save up millions and then get a university building
named after them for their huge donation.

People worked their butts off to win WWII, both on and off the battlefied.
Some got rich doing so, others just did well working overtime. *Shrug*
During an altruistic war, it helps to have greedy/altruistic workers.
Whether a soldier is truly a brave patriot or just advancing his career
is rather irrelvant to his heroics on the battlefield.

--Tedward
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-15 23:33:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Ghost of Edward M. Kennedy
Post by Chris Bellomy
Contrary to conservative (and therefore establishment) orthodoxy,
greed is *not* good.
<
<True, but assuming greed will happen is a far more sound basis for
<public policy than assuming altruism.
False dichotomy, but unlike Chris I'll bother explaining an
example -- Duke University.
What I'd like is an objective definition of greed vs."healthily
wealthy", and how you objectively distinguish between the two.
Somewhere there ought to be a line, and on this side is greed,
and on that side not-greed.
That's another false dichotomy. It's like saying on the
one hand there is speed, and on the other there is not-
speed. Both are technically true, but "not-X" can be
defined only as zero. However, both become excessive
in a more-or-less linear fashion.

This is what progressive taxation used to address. Be
as greedy as you want, but understand that the greedier
you get, the less sympathy you can expect. This kind
of curb is necessary to keep a market economy healthy.

cb
The Ghost of Edward M. Kennedy
2009-09-16 14:57:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Ghost of Edward M. Kennedy
Post by Chris Bellomy
Contrary to conservative (and therefore establishment) orthodoxy,
greed is *not* good.
<
<True, but assuming greed will happen is a far more sound basis for
<public policy than assuming altruism.
False dichotomy, but unlike Chris I'll bother explaining an
example -- Duke University.
What I'd like is an objective definition of greed vs."healthily
wealthy", and how you objectively distinguish between the two.
Somewhere there ought to be a line, and on this side is greed,
and on that side not-greed.
That's another false dichotomy.
Bullshit -- you seem to claim it's okay to try to be wealty, aka
my "healthy wealthy", but somewhere along the way it becomes
greed. DEFINE THAT POINT.
Post by Chris Bellomy
It's like saying on the
one hand there is speed, and on the other there is not-
speed. Both are technically true, but "not-X" can be
defined only as zero. However, both become excessive
in a more-or-less linear fashion.
This is what progressive taxation used to address. Be
as greedy as you want, but understand that the greedier
you get, the less sympathy you can expect. This kind
of curb is necessary to keep a market economy healthy.
Bullshit -- flat taxes cover all new wealth.

--Tedward
t***@yahoo.com
2009-09-14 23:20:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Huck Kennedy
No downturn for greed
Sorry, to your subject, what is wrong is that many are taking
advantage of preying on others. Instead of consultants and experts,
we have "what's in it for me," types. Instead of advisors, we have
salesmen with the sole goal to put money in their pockets. Instead of
those who used to be helpful in the past, we have gatekeepers who can
keep you from something you need unless you pay an extraordinary
premium.

And even if you think you get into their kingdom, when it falls down,
they walk away with their lined pockets and say, "sucks to be you."

The morality has been replaced by greed.
Dennis J
2009-09-14 23:44:08 UTC
Permalink
hey, "***@yahoo.com" <***@yahoo.com>'s been through
solid matter, for crying out loud. Who knows what's happened to his
brain? Maybe it's scrambled his molecules...
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by Huck Kennedy
No downturn for greed
Sorry, to your subject, what is wrong is that many are taking
advantage of preying on others. Instead of consultants and experts,
we have "what's in it for me," types. Instead of advisors, we have
salesmen with the sole goal to put money in their pockets. Instead of
those who used to be helpful in the past, we have gatekeepers who can
keep you from something you need unless you pay an extraordinary
premium.
And even if you think you get into their kingdom, when it falls down,
they walk away with their lined pockets and say, "sucks to be you."
The morality has been replaced by greed.
IAWTP...
--

"the Democrat and Republican parties are destroying our country right now,
They're destroying our political process." -- Jesse Ventura

"Education is the progressive discovery of our own Ignorance" Will Durant

"One can't have a sense of perspective without a sense of Humor" -- Wayne Thiboux

"the Glass is not only half full, it has been delicious so far!!" -- ME

To reply, SCRAPE off the end bits.
J. Hugh Sullivan
2009-09-15 00:19:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by Huck Kennedy
No downturn for greed
Sorry, to your subject, what is wrong is that many are taking
advantage of preying on others. Instead of consultants and experts,
we have "what's in it for me," types. Instead of advisors, we have
salesmen with the sole goal to put money in their pockets. Instead of
those who used to be helpful in the past, we have gatekeepers who can
keep you from something you need unless you pay an extraordinary
premium.
And even if you think you get into their kingdom, when it falls down,
they walk away with their lined pockets and say, "sucks to be you."
The morality has been replaced by greed.
And you are trying to legislate the suckers who fall for the schemes
into being intelligent. Let me know how that works out for you - I'm
betting on P. T. Barnum.

Hugh
t***@yahoo.com
2009-09-15 23:03:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
And you are trying to legislate the suckers who fall for the schemes
into being intelligent.
No, I'd like expert consultants, who are hired as such, to not take
advantage of their clients in the name of greed. It's one thing for a
financial analyst, for example, to try to do what is best for his
client and not be successful. It's another for someone to play the
hand as if they have their client's interest at hand, take the money,
and effectively say, "sucks to be you, I took your money, got a bonus
out of it and you were the sucker for believing that I'd help you as
your advisor."
J. Hugh Sullivan
2009-09-16 01:55:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by J. Hugh Sullivan
And you are trying to legislate the suckers who fall for the schemes
into being intelligent.
No, I'd like expert consultants, who are hired as such, to not take
advantage of their clients in the name of greed. It's one thing for a
financial analyst, for example, to try to do what is best for his
client and not be successful. It's another for someone to play the
hand as if they have their client's interest at hand, take the money,
and effectively say, "sucks to be you, I took your money, got a bonus
out of it and you were the sucker for believing that I'd help you as
your advisor."
But, don't you think it's up to the client to check the track record
of the advisor. Doesn't the client, all too often, go with the guy he
hopes will make a killing for him? Too few clients are satisfied with
just a decent rate of return accumulated over 30-40 working years.

My co-father-in-law had 5 brokers from major financial institutions
around the country fly in to make presentations. He chose one of them.
I chose the one he chose. Okay I had an advantage. I watched a few
guys who tried to make a killing take bankruptcy.

Investors are supposed to do their homework. Those who don't ought to
get hurt.

Hugh
CheeseHusker dos
2009-09-14 23:50:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Huck Kennedy
No downturn for greed
The only difference now is that the Street's biggest banks know for
sure they'll be bailed out by the federal government if their bets
turn sour -- which means even bigger bets and bigger bucks.
This is all you need to know.

Economics 101: People respond to incentives.
Dennis J
2009-09-14 23:52:30 UTC
Permalink
hey, CheeseHusker dos <***@yahoo.com>'s been through solid
matter, for crying out loud. Who knows what's happened to his brain?
Maybe it's scrambled his molecules...
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Post by Huck Kennedy
No downturn for greed
The only difference now is that the Street's biggest banks know for
sure they'll be bailed out by the federal government if their bets
turn sour -- which means even bigger bets and bigger bucks.
This is all you need to know.
Economics 101: People respond to incentives.
so if the next one fails and we let them... at least there will be
doubt...
--

"the Democrat and Republican parties are destroying our country right now,
They're destroying our political process." -- Jesse Ventura

"Education is the progressive discovery of our own Ignorance" Will Durant

"One can't have a sense of perspective without a sense of Humor" -- Wayne Thiboux

"the Glass is not only half full, it has been delicious so far!!" -- ME

To reply, SCRAPE off the end bits.
CheeseHusker dos
2009-09-15 00:03:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dennis J
matter, for crying out loud. Who knows what's happened to his brain?
Maybe it's scrambled his molecules...
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Post by Huck Kennedy
No downturn for greed
The only difference now is that the Street's biggest banks know for
sure they'll be bailed out by the federal government if their bets
turn sour -- which means even bigger bets and bigger bucks.
This is all you need to know.
Economics 101:  People respond to incentives.
so if the next one fails and we let them... at least there will be
doubt...
Lehman was a *great* start - and did you notice what happened? They
all went running to Mama and started whining....of course, it helps to
have a ridiculous number of alums populating Government Sachs - but
one step at a time.
t***@yahoo.com
2009-09-15 09:55:09 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dennis J
so if the next one fails and we let them... at least there will be
doubt...
The guy walking out the door with the $100mil paycheck doesn't care if
the bank fails, only that he got his $100mil.
CheeseHusker dos
2009-09-15 12:24:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by Dennis J
so if the next one fails and we let them... at least there will be
doubt...
The guy walking out the door with the $100mil paycheck doesn't care if
the bank fails, only that he got his $100mil.
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......

You know, Tom - there ARE other trades other than in the mortgage
markets.
The BorgMan
2009-09-15 15:57:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by Dennis J
so if the next one fails and we let them... at least there will be
doubt...
The guy walking out the door with the $100mil paycheck doesn't care if
the bank fails, only that he got his $100mil.
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
If my company went out of business tomorrow, and somebody handed me a
couple million I'd be out of a job too.

...and I'd be pretty happy about it.
--
Aaron
The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
2009-09-15 19:34:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by The BorgMan
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by Dennis J
so if the next one fails and we let them... at least there will be
doubt...
The guy walking out the door with the $100mil paycheck doesn't care if
the bank fails, only that he got his $100mil.
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
If my company went out of business tomorrow, and somebody handed me a
couple million I'd be out of a job too.
...and I'd be pretty happy about it.
--
Aaron
Especially if it was tied up in litigation.
t***@yahoo.com
2009-09-15 19:28:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
2009-09-15 19:37:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
Sure - so could I.

At what level would you be happy?

That's the point here - it's not about the trading - it's your being
jealous of how much they're making w/o realizing there are literally 5
billion people jealous of the amount you have.

Why should YOU make as much as you do?

Etc etc etc

(generic you, btw - not specific)

That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-15 19:46:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
Sure - so could I.
At what level would you be happy?
That's the point here - it's not about the trading - it's your being
jealous of how much they're making w/o realizing there are literally 5
billion people jealous of the amount you have.
Why should YOU make as much as you do?
Etc etc etc
(generic you, btw - not specific)
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
It's not about class envy. It's about the meaning of money, which is
supposed to be tied to value. When people make exorbitant amounts of
money for adding basically nothing of value to society, the entire
monetary system becomes intrinsically broken. Keep it that way long
enough, and revolution becomes inevitable.

That's the problem.

cb
The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
2009-09-15 19:58:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
Sure - so could I.
At what level would you be happy?
That's the point here - it's not about the trading - it's your being
jealous of how much they're making w/o realizing there are literally 5
billion people jealous of the amount you have.
Why should YOU make as much as you do?
Etc etc etc
(generic you, btw - not specific)
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
It's not about class envy. It's about the meaning of money, which is
supposed to be tied to value. When people make exorbitant amounts of
money for adding basically nothing of value to society, the entire
monetary system becomes intrinsically broken. Keep it that way long
enough, and revolution becomes inevitable.
That's the problem.
'cept that a lot of those guys do add value to the system thru
leveling of prices via arbitrage, making financing possible for those
would not be able to obtain, etc.

You may not see their value - I sure as hell do from where I sit.
Chris Bellomy
2009-09-15 20:05:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
Sure - so could I.
At what level would you be happy?
That's the point here - it's not about the trading - it's your being
jealous of how much they're making w/o realizing there are literally 5
billion people jealous of the amount you have.
Why should YOU make as much as you do?
Etc etc etc
(generic you, btw - not specific)
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
It's not about class envy. It's about the meaning of money, which is
supposed to be tied to value. When people make exorbitant amounts of
money for adding basically nothing of value to society, the entire
monetary system becomes intrinsically broken. Keep it that way long
enough, and revolution becomes inevitable.
That's the problem.
'cept that a lot of those guys do add value to the system thru
leveling of prices via arbitrage, making financing possible for those
would not be able to obtain, etc.
I don't dispute that people in these institutions add nontrivial
value to society. What I dispute is that the most highly paid
people in these institutions add value commensurate with their
compensation.
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
You may not see their value - I sure as hell do from where I sit.
I'm sure you see it better than I do. I learn a lot from reading
your business poasts, especially your exchanges with Jim Brown.
You guys clearly know a lot about a segment of the economy about
which I know little.

cb
The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
2009-09-15 20:19:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
Sure - so could I.
At what level would you be happy?
That's the point here - it's not about the trading - it's your being
jealous of how much they're making w/o realizing there are literally 5
billion people jealous of the amount you have.
Why should YOU make as much as you do?
Etc etc etc
(generic you, btw - not specific)
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
It's not about class envy. It's about the meaning of money, which is
supposed to be tied to value. When people make exorbitant amounts of
money for adding basically nothing of value to society, the entire
monetary system becomes intrinsically broken. Keep it that way long
enough, and revolution becomes inevitable.
That's the problem.
'cept that a lot of those guys do add value to the system thru
leveling of prices via arbitrage, making financing possible for those
would not be able to obtain, etc.
I don't dispute that people in these institutions add nontrivial
value to society. What I dispute is that the most highly paid
people in these institutions add value commensurate with their
compensation.
Look - I totally get that the values seem....ridiculous - who the hell
can possible be worth $100 million a year, right? But what if the
trader has produces profits of $2 billion for his firm? Is 1/20 fair
value of return for his worth?

I don't know. I'll be honest. Can a quarterback be worth $100
million?

What about the dealmakers who bring companies public? Or the bond
traders who float corporate bonds so that companies can expand and
grow businesses and increase employement? How much is their "worth"
relative to the amount of business they do?

I don't know.

And I DO agree that paying a bonus to a mortgage trader who *lost*
money is beyond stupid.

Frankly, I don't have a problem with ANY company not paying a bonus to
ANY trader if the company had to get bailed out - (reference the
penalty employees paid who worked for Enron and Arthur Andersen).
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
You may not see their value - I sure as hell do from where I sit.
I'm sure you see it better than I do. I learn a lot from reading
your business poasts, especially your exchanges with Jim Brown.
You guys clearly know a lot about a segment of the economy about
which I know little.
Cool. Hedging is a fascinating business - and without access to
derivatives, farmers would suffer greatly with resulting impact on
food prices.
The BorgMan
2009-09-15 20:58:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
Sure - so could I.
At what level would you be happy?
That's the point here - it's not about the trading - it's your
being jealous of how much they're making w/o realizing there are
literally
5
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
billion people jealous of the amount you have.
Why should YOU make as much as you do?
Etc etc etc
(generic you, btw - not specific)
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
It's not about class envy. It's about the meaning of money, which
is supposed to be tied to value. When people make exorbitant
amounts of money for adding basically nothing of value to society,
the entire monetary system becomes intrinsically broken. Keep it
that way long enough, and revolution becomes inevitable.
That's the problem.
'cept that a lot of those guys do add value to the system thru
leveling of prices via arbitrage, making financing possible for
those would not be able to obtain, etc.
I don't dispute that people in these institutions add nontrivial
value to society. What I dispute is that the most highly paid
people in these institutions add value commensurate with their
compensation.
Look - I totally get that the values seem....ridiculous - who the hell
can possible be worth $100 million a year, right? But what if the
trader has produces profits of $2 billion for his firm? Is 1/20 fair
value of return for his worth?
Depends on how many other guys out there can do the same.

Is he worth $100 million if you can get a guy for $10 million and he
makes $1.999 billion for the firm?

...and how much of this compensation is based on actual performance, and
how much is based on being good old boy buddies with the board? Because
we all know rank and file stockholders really have no say at all on
executive compensation.
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
I don't know. I'll be honest. Can a quarterback be worth $100
million?
Sure.

Does that mean the ones that are getting paid $100 million are worth it?
No.
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
What about the dealmakers who bring companies public? Or the bond
traders who float corporate bonds so that companies can expand and
grow businesses and increase employement? How much is their "worth"
relative to the amount of business they do?
It isn't at all relative to the business they do - it's relative to their
replacement cost.
--
Aaron
The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
2009-09-15 21:02:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by The BorgMan
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
Sure - so could I.
At what level would you be happy?
That's the point here - it's not about the trading - it's your
being jealous of how much they're making w/o realizing there are
literally
5
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
billion people jealous of the amount you have.
Why should YOU make as much as you do?
Etc etc etc
(generic you, btw - not specific)
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
It's not about class envy. It's about the meaning of money, which
is supposed to be tied to value. When people make exorbitant
amounts of money for adding basically nothing of value to society,
the entire monetary system becomes intrinsically broken. Keep it
that way long enough, and revolution becomes inevitable.
That's the problem.
'cept that a lot of those guys do add value to the system thru
leveling of prices via arbitrage, making financing possible for
those would not be able to obtain, etc.
I don't dispute that people in these institutions add nontrivial
value to society. What I dispute is that the most highly paid
people in these institutions add value commensurate with their
compensation.
Look - I totally get that the values seem....ridiculous - who the hell
can possible be worth $100 million a year, right?  But what if the
trader has produces profits of $2 billion for his firm?  Is 1/20 fair
value of return for his worth?
Depends on how many other guys out there can do the same.
Is he worth $100 million if you can get a guy for $10 million and he
makes $1.999 billion for the firm?
Absolutely agree.
Post by The BorgMan
...and how much of this compensation is based on actual performance, and
how much is based on being good old boy buddies with the board? Because
we all know rank and file stockholders really have no say at all on
executive compensation.
On the traders level? Actually most is based on performance - which
is what leads to some of the problem trades/traders - you have
incredible incentive to cook your own books/stuff trades in your desk
ala Barclay's Bank and Nick Leeson.
Post by The BorgMan
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
What about the dealmakers who bring companies public?  Or the bond
traders who float corporate bonds so that companies can expand and
grow businesses and increase employement?  How much is their "worth"
relative to the amount of business they do?
It isn't at all relative to the business they do - it's relative to their
replacement cost.
Sure -just make sure you pay him enough to keep him around next
year.....
The BorgMan
2009-09-16 15:41:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
innews:9bb
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
Sure - so could I.
At what level would you be happy?
That's the point here - it's not about the trading - it's your
being jealous of how much they're making w/o realizing there
are literally
5
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
billion people jealous of the amount you have.
Why should YOU make as much as you do?
Etc etc etc
(generic you, btw - not specific)
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
It's not about class envy. It's about the meaning of money,
which is supposed to be tied to value. When people make
exorbitant amounts of money for adding basically nothing of
value to society, the entire monetary system becomes
intrinsically broken. Keep it that way long enough, and
revolution becomes inevitable.
That's the problem.
'cept that a lot of those guys do add value to the system thru
leveling of prices via arbitrage, making financing possible for
those would not be able to obtain, etc.
I don't dispute that people in these institutions add nontrivial
value to society. What I dispute is that the most highly paid
people in these institutions add value commensurate with their
compensation.
Look - I totally get that the values seem....ridiculous - who the
hell can possible be worth $100 million a year, right?  But what if
the trader has produces profits of $2 billion for his firm?  Is
1/20 fair value of return for his worth?
Depends on how many other guys out there can do the same.
Is he worth $100 million if you can get a guy for $10 million and he
makes $1.999 billion for the firm?
Absolutely agree.
...and how much of this compensation is based on actual performance,
and how much is based on being good old boy buddies with the board?
Because we all know rank and file stockholders really have no say at
all on executive compensation.
On the traders level? Actually most is based on performance - which
is what leads to some of the problem trades/traders - you have
incredible incentive to cook your own books/stuff trades in your desk
ala Barclay's Bank and Nick Leeson.
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
What about the dealmakers who bring companies public?  Or the bond
traders who float corporate bonds so that companies can expand and
grow businesses and increase employement?  How much is their
"worth" relative to the amount of business they do?
It isn't at all relative to the business they do - it's relative to
their replacement cost.
Sure -just make sure you pay him enough to keep him around next
year.....
...or just replace him next year. Might be cheaper.
--
Aaron
CheeseHusker dos
2009-09-16 15:58:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by The BorgMan
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
innews:9bb
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
Sure - so could I.
At what level would you be happy?
That's the point here - it's not about the trading - it's your
being jealous of how much they're making w/o realizing there
are literally
5
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
billion people jealous of the amount you have.
Why should YOU make as much as you do?
Etc etc etc
(generic you, btw - not specific)
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
It's not about class envy. It's about the meaning of money,
which is supposed to be tied to value. When people make
exorbitant amounts of money for adding basically nothing of
value to society, the entire monetary system becomes
intrinsically broken. Keep it that way long enough, and
revolution becomes inevitable.
That's the problem.
'cept that a lot of those guys do add value to the system thru
leveling of prices via arbitrage, making financing possible for
those would not be able to obtain, etc.
I don't dispute that people in these institutions add nontrivial
value to society. What I dispute is that the most highly paid
people in these institutions add value commensurate with their
compensation.
Look - I totally get that the values seem....ridiculous - who the
hell can possible be worth $100 million a year, right?  But what if
the trader has produces profits of $2 billion for his firm?  Is
1/20 fair value of return for his worth?
Depends on how many other guys out there can do the same.
Is he worth $100 million if you can get a guy for $10 million and he
makes $1.999 billion for the firm?
Absolutely agree.
...and how much of this compensation is based on actual performance,
and how much is based on being good old boy buddies with the board?
Because we all know rank and file stockholders really have no say at
all on executive compensation.
On the traders level?  Actually most is based on performance - which
is what leads to some of the problem trades/traders - you have
incredible incentive to cook your own books/stuff trades in your desk
ala Barclay's Bank and Nick Leeson.
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
What about the dealmakers who bring companies public?  Or the bond
traders who float corporate bonds so that companies can expand and
grow businesses and increase employement?  How much is their
"worth" relative to the amount of business they do?
It isn't at all relative to the business they do - it's relative to
their replacement cost.
Sure -just make sure you pay him enough to keep him around next
year.....
...or just replace him next year. Might be cheaper.
--
Aaron- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Given the regression to the mean that the VAST majority of traders
undergo - this might not be a bad idea at all....
Kyle T. Jones
2009-09-16 15:17:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
Sure - so could I.
At what level would you be happy?
That's the point here - it's not about the trading - it's your being
jealous of how much they're making w/o realizing there are literally 5
billion people jealous of the amount you have.
Why should YOU make as much as you do?
Etc etc etc
(generic you, btw - not specific)
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
It's not about class envy. It's about the meaning of money, which is
supposed to be tied to value. When people make exorbitant amounts of
money for adding basically nothing of value to society, the entire
monetary system becomes intrinsically broken. Keep it that way long
enough, and revolution becomes inevitable.
That's the problem.
'cept that a lot of those guys do add value to the system thru
leveling of prices via arbitrage, making financing possible for those
would not be able to obtain, etc.
I don't dispute that people in these institutions add nontrivial
value to society. What I dispute is that the most highly paid
people in these institutions add value commensurate with their
compensation.
Look - I totally get that the values seem....ridiculous - who the hell
can possible be worth $100 million a year, right? But what if the
trader has produces profits of $2 billion for his firm? Is 1/20 fair
value of return for his worth?
What about when you find out these great minds made that money the same
way my parents always made money when they sold their houses?

Rising water, bathtub, etc. When the DOW grows from 1000 to 10000 in 18
years (IIRC), a blind monkey with darts could look like a genius...

Cheers.
CheeseHusker dos
2009-09-16 15:27:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kyle T. Jones
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
Sure - so could I.
At what level would you be happy?
That's the point here - it's not about the trading - it's your being
jealous of how much they're making w/o realizing there are literally 5
billion people jealous of the amount you have.
Why should YOU make as much as you do?
Etc etc etc
(generic you, btw - not specific)
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
It's not about class envy. It's about the meaning of money, which is
supposed to be tied to value. When people make exorbitant amounts of
money for adding basically nothing of value to society, the entire
monetary system becomes intrinsically broken. Keep it that way long
enough, and revolution becomes inevitable.
That's the problem.
'cept that a lot of those guys do add value to the system thru
leveling of prices via arbitrage, making financing possible for those
would not be able to obtain, etc.
I don't dispute that people in these institutions add nontrivial
value to society. What I dispute is that the most highly paid
people in these institutions add value commensurate with their
compensation.
Look - I totally get that the values seem....ridiculous - who the hell
can possible be worth $100 million a year, right?  But what if the
trader has produces profits of $2 billion for his firm?  Is 1/20 fair
value of return for his worth?
What about when you find out these great minds made that money the same
way my parents always made money when they sold their houses?
Rising water, bathtub, etc.  When the DOW grows from 1000 to 10000 in 18
years (IIRC), a blind monkey with darts could look like a genius...
Cheers.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Why do you think the passive index funds are so popular?
Kyle T. Jones
2009-09-15 20:48:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by Chris Bellomy
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
Sure - so could I.
At what level would you be happy?
That's the point here - it's not about the trading - it's your being
jealous of how much they're making w/o realizing there are literally 5
billion people jealous of the amount you have.
Why should YOU make as much as you do?
Etc etc etc
(generic you, btw - not specific)
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
It's not about class envy. It's about the meaning of money, which is
supposed to be tied to value. When people make exorbitant amounts of
money for adding basically nothing of value to society, the entire
monetary system becomes intrinsically broken. Keep it that way long
enough, and revolution becomes inevitable.
That's the problem.
'cept that a lot of those guys do add value to the system thru
leveling of prices via arbitrage, making financing possible for those
would not be able to obtain, etc.
You may not see their value - I sure as hell do from where I sit.
But you've written off questioning the actual valuation. A guy that did
this service three decades back may have only been making 10-20x what a
middle-income dewd was making. Now, it might be 100-1000x what a
middle-income dewd is making.

I don't think Chris is questioning that there is value here (or, if he
is, merely as an exercise in hyperbole) - but can't we start to ask
whether they aren't being overvalued?

Certainly, you can see how a person might get angry at their hedge fund
manager when the fund is going belly-up, and he and his team have gifted
themselves hundreds of millions in a bonus-rich salary structure over
the last ten years, right?

It all starts to look like a scam, to me - are the big boys big enough
to influence the market - what if they're working together? Is it fair
for me to play craps with you if I'm a telekinetic, and you aren't?

When the market is going up up up, everyone is happy, of course - but it
kind of makes you throw up a bit in your mouth when you see the same
people who lost 60% of Ma and Pa's retirement fund snorting coke off
strippers' asses. Ok, a bit of hyperbole from me, as well...

Cheers.
The BorgMan
2009-09-15 19:46:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
Sure - so could I.
At what level would you be happy?
My happiness doens't have a whole lot to do with money, so as long as I'm
doing a bit better than subsistence - it's pretty much completely
controlled by things that have nothing to do with money.
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
That's the point here - it's not about the trading - it's your being
jealous of how much they're making w/o realizing there are literally 5
billion people jealous of the amount you have.
Why should YOU make as much as you do?
I probably shouldn't.
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
Feeling that someone shouldn't gain from ruining a business and losing
lots of money is class envy?
--
Aaron
The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
2009-09-15 20:02:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by The BorgMan
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
Feeling that someone shouldn't gain from ruining a business and losing
lots of money is class envy?
And what if that trader wasn't trading mortgages? Are you okay with
the 100 mil payout? What if he was a crude or gold or FX trader?
What if he *shorted* the mortgage market on his books and made $2 bil
for the company?

A whole lotta traders made a whole lotta money for their firms last
year - not as many lost a whole lot more.

Now we get into the realm of should a good employee get punished for
the sins certain members of the company - rather than dollar amounts.
And that's an entirely different discussion altogether - one which
references Arthur Andersen and Enron, for example.
The BorgMan
2009-09-15 20:18:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
innews:7bf
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
Feeling that someone shouldn't gain from ruining a business and
losing lots of money is class envy?
And what if that trader wasn't trading mortgages? Are you okay with
the 100 mil payout? What if he was a crude or gold or FX trader?
What if he *shorted* the mortgage market on his books and made $2 bil
for the company?
If you make money, I don't have much of a problem with reward levels -
although top executive compensation should be long term loaded.
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
A whole lotta traders made a whole lotta money for their firms last
year - not as many lost a whole lot more.
Now we get into the realm of should a good employee get punished for
the sins certain members of the company - rather than dollar amounts.
And that's an entirely different discussion altogether - one which
references Arthur Andersen and Enron, for example.
I don't have a problem with large compensation generally - as long as
there is actual value generated, and that compensation correlates with
the long term value to the company.
--
Aaron
The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
2009-09-15 20:24:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by The BorgMan
innews:7bf
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
Feeling that someone shouldn't gain from ruining a business and
losing lots of money is class envy?
And what if that trader wasn't trading mortgages?  Are you okay with
the 100 mil payout?  What if he was a crude or gold or FX trader?
What if he *shorted* the mortgage market on his books and made $2 bil
for the company?
If you make money, I don't have much of a problem with reward levels -
although top executive compensation should be long term loaded.
A whole lotta traders made a whole lotta money for their firms last
year - not as many lost a whole lot more.
Now we get into the realm of should a good employee get punished for
the sins certain members of the company - rather than dollar amounts.
And that's an entirely different discussion altogether - one which
references Arthur Andersen and Enron, for example.
I don't have a problem with large compensation generally - as long as
there is actual value generated, and that compensation correlates with
the long term value to the company.
We're very much in agree on both aspects of this.
The BorgMan
2009-09-15 20:54:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
innews:9ce
innews:7bf
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
Feeling that someone shouldn't gain from ruining a business and
losing lots of money is class envy?
And what if that trader wasn't trading mortgages?  Are you okay
with the 100 mil payout?  What if he was a crude or gold or FX
trader? What if he *shorted* the mortgage market on his books and
made $2 bil for the company?
If you make money, I don't have much of a problem with reward levels
- although top executive compensation should be long term loaded.
A whole lotta traders made a whole lotta money for their firms last
year - not as many lost a whole lot more.
Now we get into the realm of should a good employee get punished
for the sins certain members of the company - rather than dollar
amounts. And that's an entirely different discussion altogether -
one which references Arthur Andersen and Enron, for example.
I don't have a problem with large compensation generally - as long as
there is actual value generated, and that compensation correlates
with the long term value to the company.
We're very much in agree on both aspects of this.
The real problem hasn't been the level of compensation (although I think
boards that think the premium they're paying for some executives is
justified by any conceivable increase in profits) - but compensation for
gains at the expense of the future health of the company.
--
Aaron
The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
2009-09-15 21:05:11 UTC
Permalink
Post by The BorgMan
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
innews:9ce
innews:7bf
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
Feeling that someone shouldn't gain from ruining a business and
losing lots of money is class envy?
And what if that trader wasn't trading mortgages?  Are you okay
with the 100 mil payout?  What if he was a crude or gold or FX
trader? What if he *shorted* the mortgage market on his books and
made $2 bil for the company?
If you make money, I don't have much of a problem with reward levels
- although top executive compensation should be long term loaded.
A whole lotta traders made a whole lotta money for their firms last
year - not as many lost a whole lot more.
Now we get into the realm of should a good employee get punished
for the sins certain members of the company - rather than dollar
amounts. And that's an entirely different discussion altogether -
one which references Arthur Andersen and Enron, for example.
I don't have a problem with large compensation generally - as long as
there is actual value generated, and that compensation correlates
with the long term value to the company.
We're very much in agree on both aspects of this.
The real problem hasn't been the level of compensation (although I think
boards that think the premium they're paying for some executives is
justified by any conceivable increase in profits) - but compensation for
gains at the expense of the future health of the company.
I dunno....I think most of the resentment is just b/c it "seems
wrong".

$100,000,000 is a lot of fucking money flat out. And it's hard to
consider that anyone is "worth" it.
Kyle T. Jones
2009-09-16 15:19:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by The BorgMan
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
innews:9ce
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
innews:7bf
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
Feeling that someone shouldn't gain from ruining a business and
losing lots of money is class envy?
And what if that trader wasn't trading mortgages? Are you okay
with the 100 mil payout? What if he was a crude or gold or FX
trader? What if he *shorted* the mortgage market on his books and
made $2 bil for the company?
If you make money, I don't have much of a problem with reward levels
- although top executive compensation should be long term loaded.
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
A whole lotta traders made a whole lotta money for their firms last
year - not as many lost a whole lot more.
Now we get into the realm of should a good employee get punished
for the sins certain members of the company - rather than dollar
amounts. And that's an entirely different discussion altogether -
one which references Arthur Andersen and Enron, for example.
I don't have a problem with large compensation generally - as long as
there is actual value generated, and that compensation correlates
with the long term value to the company.
We're very much in agree on both aspects of this.
The real problem hasn't been the level of compensation (although I think
boards that think the premium they're paying for some executives is
justified by any conceivable increase in profits) - but compensation for
gains at the expense of the future health of the company.
I dunno....I think most of the resentment is just b/c it "seems
wrong".
$100,000,000 is a lot of fucking money flat out. And it's hard to
consider that anyone is "worth" it.
Especially when you are talking about agents who look great when the
market is going up up up, and run to the feds crying for a bailout when
the market is going down down down...

I am unconvinced that these dewds know as much as they pretend to know.
No offense to yourself, sir.

Cheers.
CheeseHusker dos
2009-09-16 15:25:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kyle T. Jones
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by The BorgMan
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
innews:9ce
innews:7bf
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
Feeling that someone shouldn't gain from ruining a business and
losing lots of money is class envy?
And what if that trader wasn't trading mortgages?  Are you okay
with the 100 mil payout?  What if he was a crude or gold or FX
trader? What if he *shorted* the mortgage market on his books and
made $2 bil for the company?
If you make money, I don't have much of a problem with reward levels
- although top executive compensation should be long term loaded.
A whole lotta traders made a whole lotta money for their firms last
year - not as many lost a whole lot more.
Now we get into the realm of should a good employee get punished
for the sins certain members of the company - rather than dollar
amounts. And that's an entirely different discussion altogether -
one which references Arthur Andersen and Enron, for example.
I don't have a problem with large compensation generally - as long as
there is actual value generated, and that compensation correlates
with the long term value to the company.
We're very much in agree on both aspects of this.
The real problem hasn't been the level of compensation (although I think
boards that think the premium they're paying for some executives is
justified by any conceivable increase in profits) - but compensation for
gains at the expense of the future health of the company.
I dunno....I think most of the resentment is just b/c it "seems
wrong".
$100,000,000 is a lot of fucking money flat out.  And it's hard to
consider that anyone is "worth" it.
Especially when you are talking about agents who look great when the
market is going up up up, and run to the feds crying for a bailout when
the market is going down down down...
I am unconvinced that these dewds know as much as they pretend to know.
  No offense to yourself, sir.
Cheers.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Absolutely - and no offense taken.
The BorgMan
2009-09-16 15:40:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
innews:aea
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
innews:9ce
innews:7bf
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
Feeling that someone shouldn't gain from ruining a business and
losing lots of money is class envy?
And what if that trader wasn't trading mortgages?  Are you okay
with the 100 mil payout?  What if he was a crude or gold or FX
trader? What if he *shorted* the mortgage market on his books
and made $2 bil for the company?
If you make money, I don't have much of a problem with reward
levels - although top executive compensation should be long term
loaded.
A whole lotta traders made a whole lotta money for their firms
last year - not as many lost a whole lot more.
Now we get into the realm of should a good employee get punished
for the sins certain members of the company - rather than dollar
amounts. And that's an entirely different discussion altogether
- one which references Arthur Andersen and Enron, for example.
I don't have a problem with large compensation generally - as long
as there is actual value generated, and that compensation
correlates with the long term value to the company.
We're very much in agree on both aspects of this.
The real problem hasn't been the level of compensation (although I
think boards that think the premium they're paying for some
executives is justified by any conceivable increase in profits) - but
compensation for gains at the expense of the future health of the
company.
I dunno....I think most of the resentment is just b/c it "seems
wrong".
$100,000,000 is a lot of fucking money flat out. And it's hard to
consider that anyone is "worth" it.
Well, they probably AREN'T worth it... it's probably good old boy rewards
by the board for a buddy most of the time... but if they are at least
improving the status of the company going foreward - at worst they
overpaid for a service.

Much better than paying for the opposite.
--
Aaron
Kyle T. Jones
2009-09-15 20:39:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
Sure - so could I.
At what level would you be happy?
That's the point here - it's not about the trading - it's your being
jealous of how much they're making w/o realizing there are literally 5
billion people jealous of the amount you have.
Why should YOU make as much as you do?
Etc etc etc
(generic you, btw - not specific)
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
Your argument seems to assume there can be no point to be made regarding
an increasing or decreasing gap between, say, the middle-income workers
and the top x%. Fill out x however you like. Fill out middle-income
workers however you like.

Or, perhaps better - that any such argument against an increasing gap is
inherently motivated by jealousy...

Query: is this a valid interpretation of your point?

Cheers.
The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
2009-09-15 20:52:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kyle T. Jones
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Other than if the bank fails, he's out of a job......
I think that I could find a way to get by on $100mil and be jobless.
Sure - so could I.
At what level would you be happy?
That's the point here - it's not about the trading - it's your being
jealous of how much they're making w/o realizing there are literally 5
billion people jealous of the amount you have.
Why should YOU make as much as you do?
Etc etc etc
(generic you, btw - not specific)
That's the problem with "class envy" - it works both ways
Your argument seems to assume there can be no point to be made regarding
an increasing or decreasing gap between, say, the middle-income workers
and the top x%.  Fill out x however you like.  Fill out middle-income
workers however you like.
Or, perhaps better - that any such argument against an increasing gap is
inherently motivated by jealousy...
Query: is this a valid interpretation of your point?
Cheers.- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Somewhat.

More along the lines of unless you're the richest person in the world,
there's always someone richer - and that we "ordinary" folks are
amazingly high up the ladder - which is the all important vice versa.

The gap is worth noting - sure. I'd be far more concerned about the
overall share tho than I would be the gap. All sorts of ways to slice
and dice this - especially when you consider what it is you're
"gapping". What is considered "poverty" now, was just a short while
ago, considered wealthy.

Additionally, should the gap be "resented" or celebrated? Does it
depend on how the gap was formed? Bill Gates has created tremendous
value - (shaddup you apple folks) - is he worth it? Are you okay with
the gap between you and him considering what his company has done?
(shaddup you apple folks)
t***@yahoo.com
2009-09-15 22:45:21 UTC
Permalink
On Sep 15, 4:52 pm, "The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior"
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Does it
depend on how the gap was formed? Bill Gates has created tremendous
value - (shaddup you apple folks) - is he worth it? Are you okay with
the gap between you and him considering what his company has done?
(shaddup you apple folks)
You mean to break signed agreements, purposefully sabotage products
for support dollars, steal intellectual property, backstab partner
companies, and then basically take his money off the table and hire
the best possible lawyers to drag out suits that opponents can't
finance or migitate penalties?

The, "yeah, but they make $$$" argument fails there.

It's not much different than what we've seen elsewhere ... when a
salesman or trader or some other "businessman" generates whatever to
hit enormous bonus levels at the long-term detriment to the company,
walk away and then the company is left in shambles and people say,
"well, they were just doing what they were allowed to do."

I have a problem with it. It's not class envy, it's being a greedy,
heartless, SOB. And it really has nothing to do with "business" as
it's argued.
The Ghost of Edward M. Kennedy
2009-09-16 14:55:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by t***@yahoo.com
Post by The Cheesehusker, Trade Warrior
Does it
depend on how the gap was formed? Bill Gates has created tremendous
value - (shaddup you apple folks) - is he worth it? Are you okay with
the gap between you and him considering what his company has done?
(shaddup you apple folks)
You mean to break signed agreements, purposefully sabotage products
for support dollars, steal intellectual property, backstab partner
companies, and then basically take his money off the table and hire
the best possible lawyers to drag out suits that opponents can't
finance or migitate penalties?
Those are almost all libertarian crimes.

--Tedward
t***@yahoo.com
2009-09-16 16:10:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Ghost of Edward M. Kennedy
Those are almost all libertarian crimes.
Then I guess that it's interesting that Gates was originally thought
to be a Democrat, but when the Clinton administration lawyers started
going after him for unjust business practicess, he basically became a
Republican and contribute more to the party to get more friendly
people in key positions so he could keep doing "business as usual."
The Ghost of Edward M. Kennedy
2009-09-16 16:14:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by The Ghost of Edward M. Kennedy
Those are almost all libertarian crimes.
<
<Then I guess that it's interesting that Gates was originally thought
<to be a Democrat, but when the Clinton administration lawyers started
<going after him for unjust business practicess, he basically became a
<Republican and contribute more to the party to get more friendly
<people in key positions so he could keep doing "business as usual."

That some of the "evil" big business does is in collusion with the
government is not news to me. I do not condone that any more
than I condone the evils governments or individuals do.

--Tedward

Tom Enright
2009-09-15 12:25:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by CheeseHusker dos
Post by Huck Kennedy
No downturn for greed
The only difference now is that the Street's biggest banks know for
sure they'll be bailed out by the federal government if their bets
turn sour -- which means even bigger bets and bigger bucks.
This is all you need to know.
Economics 101:  People respond to incentives.
Indeed. If you want more of something, subsidize it. It works with
bankers and unwed teen mothers.

-Tom Enright
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